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Post by yes but on Mar 29, 2014 20:16:43 GMT -5
if you have five campus interviews and no job offers, it might be time to reflect on the matter and consider what you can do to improve your odds the next time out, assuming you intend to go on the market again. Saying "it's not my fault, it's the market" isn't going to help you improve. Accepting (partial) responsibility and doing some real reflection doesn't seem like a bad idea, at least if you hope for a different outcome in the future. PhDs age very quickly in this market and every year you don't have a TT job is going to make landing one that much more difficult. This seems to be the general consensus of this and other boards -- there's an article about it here: www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/09/11/colorado-state-criticized-job-posting-favoring-recent-phdsBetter to stay in school another year and be a "fresh" PhD than to be the candidate who still doesn't have a TT job several years after getting the degree. Obviously this doesn't count for folks doing high-status post-docs and fellowhips, but but everyone else is going to be looked at with increasing skepticism.
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Post by status on Mar 30, 2014 21:35:36 GMT -5
Times on market: 1
Status: ABD
Submitted: 32
Phone/Skype: 2
Invites: 4
Offers: 1 (accepted)
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Assistant Professor
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Post by Assistant Professor on Mar 30, 2014 21:51:17 GMT -5
This was my second time on the market, though I currently have a job as an assistant professor (the first time I was ABD).
Submitted: 56 Phone/Skype: 7 (6 completed, 1 requested after I had accepted another position) Invites: 4 (2 completed, 2 cancelled after accepting a position) Offers: 2 (1 accepted)
Because not all of the campus invites were preceded by phone interviews, I heard from a total of 10 schools.
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Post by Yikes on Mar 30, 2014 22:10:34 GMT -5
You mean to say that a position went away after you were given an offer? That's awful. How soon after did you find out?
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Assistant Professor
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Post by Assistant Professor on Mar 30, 2014 22:18:29 GMT -5
Sorry, I meant that I cancelled two scheduled visits because I had already accepted an offer from another school!
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Post by Yikes on Mar 30, 2014 22:23:21 GMT -5
I suspected as much, but this experience is ripe for fostering paranoia.
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Post by runner on Mar 31, 2014 7:21:52 GMT -5
You know , a year ago I would've been skeptical like posters above about 5camous visits and no offer - clearly candidate erred, I'd've thought. But having now been there ... I don't think so. Yes I've done a lot of reflection and postmortem to improve or see whether there was a common weakness. And you know what me and my advisors think? I'm not doing anything wrong. Highly competitive, low iteration, high risk, high reward game. I'm still on the statistical norm. It sucks, sure, but in exactly the same structural suckiness everyone faces in higher ed these days. I decided to post to help remedy the 'success'-bias pointed out earlier in this thread.
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Post by SocPhD on Mar 31, 2014 9:33:54 GMT -5
Status: newly-minted PhD (2014) Times on the market: 1 Apps: ~35 (mostly academic jobs, VAP, TT, postdocs) Heard from (so far): 0
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Post by Lucky on Mar 31, 2014 9:50:20 GMT -5
Second time on market. Status: ABD/PhD Apps (this year): fewer than 20, 2 non-soc, all TT Phone/Skype: 1 Campus invites: 1 Offers: 1 (accepted)
Was very selective in where I applied - in terms of tier of school, specialties offered, geographic location. First time around got nothing, but got lucky this time. Pulled out of a few searches before short lists created, so who knows what would've happened (was definitely on the long list at other places, but had a quick turn around on the offer).
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Post by it happens on Mar 31, 2014 11:26:11 GMT -5
While doing postmortems is always useful whenever one goes on an interview, I would not read anything into not getting an offer after 4, 5 or more campus visits. Given the number of candidates on the market, there will always be a number of people who just end up in those situations by luck of the draw.
I think I've gone on maybe 8 campus interviews in my life. In some cases, I had no shot at the position no matter how well I did in the interview. One was a sham search - which I found out when my teaching presentation was so poorly advertised that only ONE student showed up. Another went to a really big shot established scholar who was moving to be closer to family (it was an open rank search - they even tried to get the dean to approve an extra line for me, but no way they would pick me over a established star). On the other hand, I landed a postdoc a few years ago when the 1st choice declined the offer, and then when I got my current tenure track position one of the interviewees dropped out of search before they came to campus. In other words, little changes in luck and I could have either been hired on my first interview, or not hired at all after 8, all because of things outside my control. People tend to really underestimate the randomness of the market.
For the sake of this thread: 1st time on the market: ABD ~ 60 applications, both tenure track and postdocs, both soc and interdisciplinary 4 telephone interviews 5 campus interviews - only three of those did a prior phone interview (one declined) 2 offers (1 postdoc and 1 tt, took postdoc)
2nd time on the market: Postdoc ~30 applications (no postdocs, geographically limited to urban areas or along the coasts) 3 telephone interviews 3 on campus interviews (1 declined) 1 offer (tenure track, took it)
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Post by data point on Mar 31, 2014 11:58:12 GMT -5
When I was on the market last year, I did 5 interviews in the fall -- didn't get a single one of the jobs. Went into the holidays devastated. Then, in the winter/spring I did 3 more interviews and got offers from all three. So, yes, getting passed over 4 or 5 times in a row does happen, and it's not necessarily because you stink. You just never know.
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Post by Bad Advisors on Mar 31, 2014 13:22:16 GMT -5
You know , a year ago I would've been skeptical like posters above about 5camous visits and no offer - clearly candidate erred, I'd've thought. But having now been there ... I don't think so. Yes I've done a lot of reflection and postmortem to improve or see whether there was a common weakness. And you know what me and my advisors think? I'm not doing anything wrong. Highly competitive, low iteration, high risk, high reward game. I'm still on the statistical norm. It sucks, sure, but in exactly the same structural suckiness everyone faces in higher ed these days. I decided to post to help remedy the 'success'-bias pointed out earlier in this thread. When I was a graduate student, my advisors told me how great my work was and that departments would be really interested in my "unique" work. They were nice people, but terrible advisors. Their advice made it hard to get a job. After some frustrating experiences with the market, they continued to say the same thing you're hearing -- you're not doing anything wrong. Turns out I was. I got new advisors, those who were honest enough to give me serious criticism and feedback. And I got a job. I also did some talks where I didn't get the job, and I can pinpoint almost exactly where I went wrong. Yes, the market is terrible, but those who only blame the market and don't look for ways to improve what they're doing when they're "in the room" are going to be permanent adjuncts/VAPs. Good luck.
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Post by happy on Mar 31, 2014 13:51:27 GMT -5
First time applying for TT jobs. Currently a postdoc (only applied to postdocs in the past)
Submitted: 12 applications (TT jobs primarily in medical sociology and demography subfields) Phone Interviews: 2 (declined one phone interview after I had two offers) Campus interviews: 4 (went to 3, declined one campus visit after I had two offers) Job offers: 2 (accepted one)
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Post by it happens on Mar 31, 2014 14:13:56 GMT -5
You know , a year ago I would've been skeptical like posters above about 5camous visits and no offer - clearly candidate erred, I'd've thought. But having now been there ... I don't think so. Yes I've done a lot of reflection and postmortem to improve or see whether there was a common weakness. And you know what me and my advisors think? I'm not doing anything wrong. Highly competitive, low iteration, high risk, high reward game. I'm still on the statistical norm. It sucks, sure, but in exactly the same structural suckiness everyone faces in higher ed these days. I decided to post to help remedy the 'success'-bias pointed out earlier in this thread. When I was a graduate student, my advisors told me how great my work was and that departments would be really interested in my "unique" work. They were nice people, but terrible advisors. Their advice made it hard to get a job. After some frustrating experiences with the market, they continued to say the same thing you're hearing -- you're not doing anything wrong. Turns out I was. I got new advisors, those who were honest enough to give me serious criticism and feedback. And I got a job. I also did some talks where I didn't get the job, and I can pinpoint almost exactly where I went wrong. Yes, the market is terrible, but those who only blame the market and don't look for ways to improve what they're doing when they're "in the room" are going to be permanent adjuncts/VAPs. Good luck. Thankfully, it is possible to have a position that is halfway between "it's all your fault" and "it's all the market, don't change a thing." No one has said that people shouldn't look for ways to improve what they're doing, so that is a total strawman.
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Post by zeroes on Mar 31, 2014 14:38:42 GMT -5
There need to be more people without offers on this thread. Maybe some without offers are still waiting and hoping before contributing their final count.
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