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Post by That's me on Dec 24, 2014 15:55:50 GMT -5
I'm having decent success, just not with the types of positions I really want. It's difficult to demonstrate fit for a teaching job when your background is a top R1 grad program, you have a good pub record, and you've been stuck teaching only one course a semester (and the same one at that) for the last five years.
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Post by whatskillingme on Dec 24, 2014 16:22:30 GMT -5
im having absolutely no success, and im feeling caught in an awkward middle --just coming out of grad school now with a solid (but not absurd) pub record for someone at this stage from an ok/good but certainly not anywhere close to "elite" program. I feel like my profile is getting me passed over at R1s because Id probably have to outperform people coming from elite schools by at least 2-3 fold to even be considered at most of them anyway (though maybe if a 3 yr VAP or something come a knockin' Ill have time to bridge that gap) and Im starting to feel like smaller colleges are hesitant to pull the trigger on me just bc I am decently accomplished in research (despite that I forward solid teaching evals and have a heartfelt teaching statement).
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Post by runner on Dec 25, 2014 14:05:22 GMT -5
Oh this board. I'm not usually so snarky but ... having trouble wrapping my head around sociologists who imagine that they are somehow outside social structures. There are more perfectly qualified applicants than there are positions. By multiples. That is why no one's getting jobs. Not because there's a conspiracy against snowflake you.
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Post by Pleezus on Dec 25, 2014 20:40:49 GMT -5
I wouldn't assume that the reason either of you aren't having much success is because your record is too good. It's just an insanely tight market, still. Why does everyone in sociology use this term incorrectly? Labor markets are "tight" when there is not enough labor to fill jobs (more jobs than workers). It's "slack" when there are more workers than jobs. |
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Post by runner on Dec 27, 2014 12:32:37 GMT -5
didn't know that, pleezus. but i think i'm gonna keep using it the way that's intuitive for me - from the worker's perspective, not the corps - and bonus if that annoys the economists.
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Post by Seriously? on Dec 27, 2014 18:33:28 GMT -5
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Post by one's perspective on Dec 28, 2014 0:47:09 GMT -5
So long as you're being pedantic -- and that's not a criticism -- I might as well point out that your definition of tightness refers generally to any market, but all of your examples specifically refer to markets for labor, from the employer's perspective. Most hiring institutions always see a slack labor market, unless they are trying to fill an obscure specialty in a remote location. If you are thinking about the applicant's perspective, as suggested by runner, the market for jobs is rather tight. I really don't give a fork about the labor market right now. I'm in the market for a good job, and I'm having trouble getting one that is suitable. For me, it is a tight market. |
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Post by That's me on Jan 2, 2015 1:12:04 GMT -5
While I don't think there is a conspiracy, there is legitimate concern. This is from today from the other board:
"This has come up over and over again. I work at a SLAC and most of our hires come from Iowa, Missouri, Notre Dame, Oregon sorts of places-- even though people surely do apply from Princeton and Wisconsin.
You are assuming that LRMs prefer the VHRM ABD's or PhDs and will hire hem if they can. I can assure you that often is not true.
There are many rwasons why a MRM grad student gets hired over a VHRM (fear of getting elitist assholes, fear of them leaving quickly, VHRM applicants often have less demonstrated commitment to teaching, and so on)
VHRMs have an advantage for HRM jobs, but at SLAC and other smaller public universities (UW-Whitewater, etc) that advantage vanishes."
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Post by qwertt on Jan 2, 2015 23:42:14 GMT -5
While I don't think there is a conspiracy, there is legitimate concern. This is from today from the other board: "This has come up over and over again. I work at a SLAC and most of our hires come from Iowa, Missouri, Notre Dame, Oregon sorts of places-- even though people surely do apply from Princeton and Wisconsin. You are assuming that LRMs prefer the VHRM ABD's or PhDs and will hire hem if they can. I can assure you that often is not true. There are many rwasons why a MRM grad student gets hired over a VHRM (fear of getting elitist assholes, fear of them leaving quickly, VHRM applicants often have less demonstrated commitment to teaching, and so on) VHRMs have an advantage for HRM jobs, but at SLAC and other smaller public universities (UW-Whitewater, etc) that advantage vanishes." The myth of "I can't get a job because I am too good" is just that, a myth. There are plenty of of faculty with tons of publications and high prestige degrees at "SLAC and other small public universities." It is not all the publications and prestige that hurt you at teaching intensive universities (don't believe me, take a look at princeton's or wisconsin's placement page). No one is going to avoid you because you got an ASR or a degree from Princeton. They may avoid you because your only teaching experience was a small elective to elite students and they need someone to teach intro, stats, theory and stratification to 200 non-traditional students, or because your teaching philosophy was a near copy and paste job from an online sample (or at least sounded just as generic). But even if you do have that experience, you are then one of dozens with a similar profile. |
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Post by That's me on Jan 3, 2015 0:20:45 GMT -5
I don't think I'm too good AT ALL. That has never been my problem. I am, however, an AP that has been on SCs that have put apps in the "no" pile because of lack of teaching experience, and I'm not even at a teaching school. The point was that convincing a good teaching school of your ability and desire teach when you have a predominantly R1-style background can be very challenging. It did not in any way deserve a couple of jerks coming on here and accusing anyone of buying into myths or conspiracy theories.
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Post by assumptions on Jan 6, 2015 0:24:08 GMT -5
THIS! I'm a recent grad from a top R1 program and my first year on the market the Soc department at the SLAC where my dad works was hiring (he's in another field). Despite my years of teaching experience and receipt of teaching awards, Dad told me that he bumped into a member of the SC who said "Hey! Saw that your son applied for our position. But coming from [prestigious school] he probably really wouldn't want to come here." Dad was like "No he'd LOVE to come here! This is HOME. He loves this University." So it may be one of those #firstworldproblems that it seems arrogant and pretentious to complain about, but assumptions are made about R1 grads and about what they "really" want/can do when it comes to teaching; and sometimes experience, demonstrated ability or even literally saying I grew up admiring this university and would be honored for the opportunity to come home and join the faculty is not enough to over come those assumptions. And FWIW the person they ended up hiring was a really good fit and I readily admit a much better person for the job than me; so I'm not saying I should have gotten the job. My point, like That's me's point, is that its a challenge to convence teaching schools you WANT it. |
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Post by tech fail on Jan 6, 2015 0:25:48 GMT -5
okay will quote the old fashioned way. Copy and paste it is:
"The point was that convincing a good teaching school of your ability and desire teach when you have a predominantly R1-style background can be very challenging"
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Post by Miss Anne Thrope on Jan 6, 2015 5:26:47 GMT -5
THIS! I'm a recent grad from a top R1 program and my first year on the market the Soc department at the SLAC where my dad works was hiring (he's in another field). Despite my years of teaching experience and receipt of teaching awards, Dad told me that he bumped into a member of the SC who said "Hey! Saw that your son applied for our position. But coming from [prestigious school] he probably really wouldn't want to come here." Dad was like "No he'd LOVE to come here! This is HOME. He loves this University." So it may be one of those #firstworldproblems that it seems arrogant and pretentious to complain about, but assumptions are made about R1 grads and about what they "really" want/can do when it comes to teaching; and sometimes experience, demonstrated ability or even literally saying I grew up admiring this university and would be honored for the opportunity to come home and join the faculty is not enough to over come those assumptions. And FWIW the person they ended up hiring was a really good fit and I readily admit a much better person for the job than me; so I'm not saying I should have gotten the job. My point, like That's me's point, is that its a challenge to convence teaching schools you WANT it. We should probably be more specific (top10, top20) since anyone who has a PhD went to an R1 (a PhD granting institution) |
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Post by That's me on Jan 6, 2015 9:44:21 GMT -5
Top 10
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Post by qwertt on Jan 6, 2015 12:30:31 GMT -5
Again, it might be comforting to think that the reason you are not getting a job is because your PhD program is too prestigious or you have too many publications. You may even seek out anecdotal evidence to confirm your view. But a quick look at the placements of top sociology departments show that there is no such thing. The fact is that something like 1/3 of all PhD graduates in any given year come out of a top 20 department, and virtually everyone nowadays comes out with at least a publication. This isn't anecdotal. Go through the placement pages of the top 5, 10, 20 programs and you will see people land anywhere from top r1s to SLACs and even community colleges. Go through their PhDs on the market page and you will see nearly everyone with a publication. There are ways of tailoring your application to be more or less competitive at teaching schools, but there is no such thing as too much prestige or too many publications. I am at a bottom of the barrel state regional school, in a small city, with salaries in the bottom quartile. We have a Berkeley grad teaching here, and on our current search I can count over 10 candidates from top 20 institutions with both publications and teaching experience. 10 years ago my institution would have had problems with HR because we couldn't find enough people to interview. Now, we've had to set up a system because we would blow our printing budget if we printed copies of all applications for all search committee members.
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