anon
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Post by anon on Feb 7, 2012 12:17:01 GMT -5
Ok - this may be an odd topic, but...
I am an asst. professor (TT) at a decent school in a big city where I've been told tenure is pretty certain for me, but feel highly ambivalent about my position. I vacillate between wanting to be a professor and wanting to do applied research (public policy-ish stuff). I feel kind of guilty, since I know many people looking for academic jobs would love to have my position. But I was wondering if other people share my uncertainty. I'm trying to decide whether to leave my position for a more lucrative job outside of a university (doing research I think is interesting and meaningful, but won't be necessarily in my specialty area).
I'd appreciate hearing how other people weigh such decisions - I keep going over and over in my head "well, on the plus side, there's intellectual freedom, steady employment, flexibility with time, but on the downside there's less money, whiny students, the need to try to constantly be producing..." Ugh - I am chasing my tail!
Thanks, and of course, best of luck to everyone still on the hunt!
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Post by alsoambivalent on Feb 7, 2012 13:02:03 GMT -5
Anon: I am also struggling with the same issues.
I have a good postdoc with a huge amount of freedom. I am trying to psych myself up for the job market next year but find myself on idealist.org every other day looking at policy/evaluation jobs. The thing I struggle most with is the feeling that I could be doing more meaningful work outside of academia. Writing papers that perhaps 20 other academics will read just isn't doing it for me.
But I think I suffer from "the grass is always greener" syndrome. As I struggle with rejections, uncertainty, and a feeling that my research is too obscure, uninteresting, and fairly low impact, I imagine the policy world to be vibrant and with purpose. I'm sure this is not the case and I would have a host of other things to whine about if I were working in that setting.
I guess the issue is figuring out if the benefits of the policy world outweigh the costs.
I'm obviously in a somewhat different position in my career than you (no TT position) and probably have more time (no teaching), but I recently started volunteering with a local non-profit that needed some help with their evaluation work. So far it has been very useful. I am getting a better sense of what it might be like to do evaluation work in a non-profit setting and also getting some applied experience if I decide to go in that direction.
Every day I seem to feel differently about academia and I too seem to endlessly chase my tail about this but I think reaching out to people who know the non-academic world is a good first step. Then at least you can base your decision on some solid facts and perhaps figure out if it will provide you with what you are missing in academia.
Thanks for starting this tread, by the way. It is often very difficult to talk about the non-academic world with colleagues/advisers.
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ok
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Post by ok on Feb 7, 2012 13:12:16 GMT -5
You guys can do consulting too, if you aren't slammed.
Also, if you have undergrad or master's project courses, you can reach out to nonprofits for suitable projects for them to work on pro bono. That is a model some of the policy schools use and the students benefit because then they have a real world client. I have heard of project courses to make databases, to do program evaluation, to write a draft funding proposal for an arts organization, to do a business plan for a new firm. So there are a lot of possibilities there.
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Post by postac on Feb 7, 2012 22:33:27 GMT -5
Check out versatilephd.com. Sign up for the forums (free, and no spam). There are a lot of resources there ... and a lot of support for this kind of move from former academics as well.
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anon
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Post by anon on Feb 8, 2012 19:35:29 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts. I think for me (the original poster), since I have a fair amount of experience in applied research both inside and out of universities, for me it's mostly a "grass is greener" issue - likely best solved in therapy - rather than a lack of information about the field or other opportunities. But the idea of integrating more applied projects into classroom activities is a helpful reminder; up til now, I've been somewhat constrained in what I could do, but perhaps moving forward I will be able to use that idea. I really appreciated hearing from other people who have uncertainties! Thanks.
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Post by respectful on Feb 9, 2012 1:01:22 GMT -5
I think a lot of academics have doubts. Many of my friends don't seem into the enterprise... focus elsewhere, low productivity, low investment in the life of the field, teaching, etc.
But I wonder if that should be a sign. Sure the hours are great, but if you don't enjoy the work, why subject yourself to it?
I love this job. I love it every day. Even the days I hate it. Sure I'm stressed, sure I hate the constant rejection, sure I hate the never-ending feeling of not doing enough, but really, I do love it. And I feel sorry for you if you don't have the same passion. I hope that all of us, academics or not, get to do what we love. No matter what everyone else is doing.
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Post by unclekarl on Feb 9, 2012 10:07:47 GMT -5
We are in a Depression. As such, the rules of the game have changed. I know people who would have been placed very differently prior to 2001, or at least not applying 100-200 schools without an offer while having lots of teaching and research publications. Cohorts which have graduated in the 4 years are going to experience MANY unexpected outcomes. Its a pretty straight-forward exercise to apply life-course research from the Great Depression and compare it with our outcomes today. There are many people leaving the Academy for other work [govt., private companies, etc.] & entering work in the peripheral academic market. Some things may correct in 5 years, but there are many who will have bitter, painful experiences [like an acquaintance with a Ph.D. who is now doing temp work]. There are certainly many cases where people do not have their heart in it, but there are many cases where outcomes suck or have taken a very non-traditional path.
I hope everyone is able to find some sort of resolution. Its difficult work hard for a Ph.D. for 5-8 years and not find something. I hope ASA or a group of sociologists follow people who have graduated in this period. My guess is that cases where things have not worked out well will have a number of adverse events, including mental and physical health issues, personal-familial problems, and eventually higher mortality.
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anon
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Post by anon on Feb 9, 2012 10:18:16 GMT -5
^ Remember, if we are headed into prolonged economic depression, one of the historical options was international migration. Right now, China, East Asia, Middle East, Australia and New Zealand are all going strong lately, and they are snatching up US-trained academics.
There is an existing concern about not being able to come back to the US if you take one of those jobs, but given economic conditions, that may not hold as long as you keep up the publishing.
These are interesting times.
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Post by yes on Feb 29, 2012 0:30:02 GMT -5
Let me say that I completely get this feeling.
I used to do some consulting work while in grad school for a for profit company, and at the time it didn't attract me at all.
And then a couple of weeks ago I went on this academic job interview. And then when we went out to dinner the faculty mentioned how they never really went to this restaurant because they couldn't afford it, so they only went there when the university picked up the tab for dinner with candidates. And I learned that most of the young faculty lived with roommates, or in tiny studio apartments with long commutes.
And I am not a greedy person. I don't need the latest and greatest gadgets, status symbols, etc. But this discouraged me immensely. Is that what I have to look forward to? Not being able to afford nice dinners and living with roommates into my 30s? Sure, I've always dreamed of the academic life. But I've also always dreamed of traveling the world, of living in a nice place, etc.
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Post by counterpoint on Feb 29, 2012 1:19:14 GMT -5
I'm an assistant prof in a high cost of living area, but I have a well paying academic job. I rent a nice house that I like. I eat expensive dinners out when I want, buy the things I want or need, and take trips when I can. Some of this is certainly the income, but a lot of this is that the 8 years of living on less than 20k in grad school means that my tastes never developed in an expensive way... I don't like to buy things, I don't like to eat out at fancy places a lot, etc. So I can afford them when I want to.
So what I'm suggesting is that academia doesn't mean that you're impoverished. Even in the lowest paying institutions you're still making the American household median. You may give up the Ferrari for a Honda Civic, but you get control of your time and you get to have a decent life.
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Post by yes on Feb 29, 2012 2:24:38 GMT -5
I'm an assistant prof in a high cost of living area, but I have a well paying academic job. I rent a nice house that I like. I eat expensive dinners out when I want, buy the things I want or need, and take trips when I can. Some of this is certainly the income, but a lot of this is that the 8 years of living on less than 20k in grad school means that my tastes never developed in an expensive way... I don't like to buy things, I don't like to eat out at fancy places a lot, etc. So I can afford them when I want to. So what I'm suggesting is that academia doesn't mean that you're impoverished. Even in the lowest paying institutions you're still making the American household median. You may give up the Ferrari for a Honda Civic, but you get control of your time and you get to have a decent life. If you live in a high cost of living area and are making the NATIONAL median, you are probably under the local median, often by a good amount. And I wasn't talking about expensive tastes. Just like I don't think that the fact that I put up with low incomes in grad school is a selling point for academia. It is sort of useless to argue this without the specifics (and we shouldn't out ourselves here anyways). It may be that your high cost of living area isn't as expensive as the one I was talking about. Or that the salary in your institution is as low as the one I was interviewing at. My point was simply that in my particular situation, I think leaving academia is looking more and more desirable. Not because I want a ferrari or status symbols, which you seem to imply even though I specifically said I wasn't interested in expensive status symbols. But because right now, the specific opportunities available to me make academia not seem worthwhile. The life of the faculty I talked to at the place I interviewed is not something I want. Living with roommates, not being able to afford nice restaurants (and Im not talking 50 dollar plate places either), and having to tutor high school students on the side, or teach GED night classes (which is stuff I was told specifically faculty did at this place) to make ends meet are not things I want to be doing married and over 30.
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the school not academia
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Post by the school not academia on Feb 29, 2012 5:45:22 GMT -5
I'm an assistant prof in a high cost of living area, but I have a well paying academic job. I rent a nice house that I like. I eat expensive dinners out when I want, buy the things I want or need, and take trips when I can. Some of this is certainly the income, but a lot of this is that the 8 years of living on less than 20k in grad school means that my tastes never developed in an expensive way... I don't like to buy things, I don't like to eat out at fancy places a lot, etc. So I can afford them when I want to. So what I'm suggesting is that academia doesn't mean that you're impoverished. Even in the lowest paying institutions you're still making the American household median. You may give up the Ferrari for a Honda Civic, but you get control of your time and you get to have a decent life. If you live in a high cost of living area and are making the NATIONAL median, you are probably under the local median, often by a good amount. And I wasn't talking about expensive tastes. Just like I don't think that the fact that I put up with low incomes in grad school is a selling point for academia. It is sort of useless to argue this without the specifics (and we shouldn't out ourselves here anyways). It may be that your high cost of living area isn't as expensive as the one I was talking about. Or that the salary in your institution is as low as the one I was interviewing at. My point was simply that in my particular situation, I think leaving academia is looking more and more desirable. Not because I want a ferrari or status symbols, which you seem to imply even though I specifically said I wasn't interested in expensive status symbols. But because right now, the specific opportunities available to me make academia not seem worthwhile. The life of the faculty I talked to at the place I interviewed is not something I want. Living with roommates, not being able to afford nice restaurants (and Im not talking 50 dollar plate places either), and having to tutor high school students on the side, or teach GED night classes (which is stuff I was told specifically faculty did at this place) to make ends meet are not things I want to be doing married and over 30. Man, it's the institution at which you were interviewing, NOT life in academia, that you don't want. If you are at a notable department, then you will be paid a salary that allows you to live with a good standard of living, although the standard obviously will be better at a low-COL institution that pays well. There also are additional benefits that help to offset the COL so that good institutions can recruit faculty competitively. Why are your expectations for academia any different than for the private sector? Not every job in the private sector is going to pay well, and many will, indeed, pay just well enough that you will have roommates, not be able to eat at nice restaurants, etc. The same goes for academia; just look at the "offers" thread and see the wide variance, with some people starting at 40k and others in the 70s, and it is obvious that what you desire are better academic opportunities, not necessarily an escape from academia.
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Post by TechDifficulties on Feb 29, 2012 12:14:11 GMT -5
Seems like 2 separate points that can certainly be intertwined.
Point 1 - Ambivalence to academia. Maybe teaching is not for you, maybe research is not for you, maybe both. Maybe pressure to get tenure at an R1 is not for you. Perhaps the pressure to publish is not appealing or the politics, the false meritocracy, the academic elitism, on and on.
Point 2 - Return on investment. Slugging away in graduate school for 4-12 years and getting paid peanuts compared to an investment banker with no student debt can seem quite unfair. The example given of some professors at a particular school working additional jobs to get by is less than ideal. That's certainly one side of academia that exists, but for some, they don't have to work additional jobs and live comfortable lifestyles. Obviously it depends on the institution, geography, individual's situation (married? kids? no kids?), but my point is that there is a wide diversity of experience, just as we see in many different career industries.
Ambivalence can be related to poor financial compensation, but it could be that academia's just not your thing.
I'd say as a professor, I love the freedom. I love the teaching. I like the research. With my n of 1, I feel more then well compensated and my pay is the mean of what has been posted on this board for new hires. The 2/2 teaching load and graduate research assistant helps. I'm single with no kids. I personally like having a roommate. There's someone who can feed my dog while I'm out of town.
I have friends who have to go in to work everyday, don't get summers off, don't get to feel like they are contributing to the production of knowledge or giving students new theoretical perspectives. I often think I'm lucky to have a job like this, but again, it's not for everyone.
Maybe academia won't be for me forever. But, I found myself scared before taking a job, especially worried when I wasn't sure if I'd even get one. It was easier to think, "well, academia isn't for me." When you're a kid, people tell you, "try it, see if you like it." For those who get an opportunity to try it, perhaps you should take the opportunity and see for yourself. No one is gonna make you stay in academia. Someone else will happily take the job if you don't want it.
I think there are definitely many, many perks, but it's obviously shaped by resources a school has, workload, COL, family structure, etc, etc. Just my more than 2 cents.
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but the school is academia
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Post by but the school is academia on Feb 29, 2012 13:19:35 GMT -5
Perhaps, but more and more schools are falling to the seriously inadequate side of the spectrum of compensation and institutional resources. What makes it possible is the job market: so many people want the job that when push comes to shove, they're willing to take it. That's why, for example, salaries in English have dropped ludicrously low, except for a lucky few.
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Post by yes on Feb 29, 2012 13:47:00 GMT -5
Seems like 2 separate points that can certainly be intertwined. Point 1 - Ambivalence to academia. Maybe teaching is not for you, maybe research is not for you, maybe both. Maybe pressure to get tenure at an R1 is not for you. Perhaps the pressure to publish is not appealing or the politics, the false meritocracy, the academic elitism, on and on. Point 2 - Return on investment. Slugging away in graduate school for 4-12 years and getting paid peanuts compared to an investment banker with no student debt can seem quite unfair. The example given of some professors at a particular school working additional jobs to get by is less than ideal. That's certainly one side of academia that exists, but for some, they don't have to work additional jobs and live comfortable lifestyles. Obviously it depends on the institution, geography, individual's situation (married? kids? no kids?), but my point is that there is a wide diversity of experience, just as we see in many different career industries. Ambivalence can be related to poor financial compensation, but it could be that academia's just not your thing. I'd say as a professor, I love the freedom. I love the teaching. I like the research. With my n of 1, I feel more then well compensated and my pay is the mean of what has been posted on this board for new hires. The 2/2 teaching load and graduate research assistant helps. I'm single with no kids. I personally like having a roommate. There's someone who can feed my dog while I'm out of town. I have friends who have to go in to work everyday, don't get summers off, don't get to feel like they are contributing to the production of knowledge or giving students new theoretical perspectives. I often think I'm lucky to have a job like this, but again, it's not for everyone. Maybe academia won't be for me forever. But, I found myself scared before taking a job, especially worried when I wasn't sure if I'd even get one. It was easier to think, "well, academia isn't for me." When you're a kid, people tell you, "try it, see if you like it." For those who get an opportunity to try it, perhaps you should take the opportunity and see for yourself. No one is gonna make you stay in academia. Someone else will happily take the job if you don't want it. I think there are definitely many, many perks, but it's obviously shaped by resources a school has, workload, COL, family structure, etc, etc. Just my more than 2 cents. But 1 and 2 are intimately linked. 2 can happen because people are so enamored with the things mentioned in 1. I know of several places in the higher cost of living areas where salaries for new soc. faculty are between 1/3 to 1/2 LESS than the median household income for the area... Places in DC, New York, southern Cal, the bay area or connecticut, where the starting pay is less than 50k (and I'm not talking community colleges or phoenix type schools either... plenty of state schools fall into this). And of course this is talking about tenure track positions, something that a significant number of us won't get. I mean, certainly for all of us there is a point where love for teaching, love for research, love for the independence of being an academic starts to become irrelevant. So I don't know how 2 can be discussed as separate from 1.
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