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Post by Anon on Mar 22, 2012 12:41:48 GMT -5
What do we make of RWJ offers going to folks who have TT offers at the same institution?
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Post by list on Mar 22, 2012 14:03:44 GMT -5
Is there a list somewhere of the cohort?
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Post by ElDuderino on Mar 22, 2012 14:05:45 GMT -5
edited out names. Don't argue about specific names.
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Post by sooo on Mar 23, 2012 8:05:51 GMT -5
where did the previous info come from?
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Post by info on Mar 23, 2012 9:02:30 GMT -5
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Post by Anon on Mar 23, 2012 11:20:32 GMT -5
Seems like it's a recruiting device. Which, of course, is great for the folks who have offers at these institutions and creates a more challenging job market for the rest of us.
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Post by how so on Mar 23, 2012 11:58:53 GMT -5
Seems like it's a recruiting device. Which, of course, is great for the folks who have offers at these institutions and creates a more challenging job market for the rest of us. How does it create a more challenging market for others if someone has both a postdoc offer and a TT offer from the same place? If the TT offer is going to someone, the RWJ would just allow for someone else to pay that person for the first two years and for him or her to have two years to get rolling without the customary relocation transition bridging the conversion from postdoc to active faculty member. Very many RWJ scholars have TT positions secured by the time they accept the fellowship, so whether this position is at the place that is hosting the postdoc or elsewhere, nobody else lost out on that position.
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Post by reason on Mar 23, 2012 12:22:28 GMT -5
How does it create a more challenging market for others if someone has both a postdoc offer and a TT offer from the same place? If the TT offer is going to someone, the RWJ would just allow for someone else to pay that person for the first two years and for him or her to have two years to get rolling without the customary relocation transition bridging the conversion from postdoc to active faculty member. Very many RWJ scholars have TT positions secured by the time they accept the fellowship, so whether this position is at the place that is hosting the postdoc or elsewhere, nobody else lost out on that position. Hypothetically, if those three people (whom we are forbidden from naming here, but are listed in the link) didn't apply for RWJ positions, there would be three other people from this market who received them. Either directly from the RWJ, or through vacancy chains, three more people potentially* would have received offers from somewhere. If a RWJ scholar does not have a concurrent TT offer, they'd be back on the market in two years. However, if you're reading this board, you'd probably prefer that vacancies occur now, as opposed to facing additional competition in two years. Put differently, those three people "double-dipped" and filled up six vacancies. Of course, they have earned (or at least been granted) this privilege, and it is entirely within their rights to do so. * I won't unequivocally say 'three', because there's potential for failed searches along the vacancy chains.
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Post by yeahbut on Mar 23, 2012 13:52:12 GMT -5
How does it create a more challenging market for others if someone has both a postdoc offer and a TT offer from the same place? If the TT offer is going to someone, the RWJ would just allow for someone else to pay that person for the first two years and for him or her to have two years to get rolling without the customary relocation transition bridging the conversion from postdoc to active faculty member. Very many RWJ scholars have TT positions secured by the time they accept the fellowship, so whether this position is at the place that is hosting the postdoc or elsewhere, nobody else lost out on that position. I don't think this addresses the OP's point though. Someone landing a TT job and RWJ concurrently is not a new thing (hell, one department hired two ABDs last year who BOTH landed RWJs). The OP is specifically commenting on landing the RWJ and the TT job at the same institution. Thus, the point isn't that the candidates are double-dipping but rather that the institutions are inflating their own faculty prestige by giving them a shiny new line on the CV. Hypothetically, if those three people (whom we are forbidden from naming here, but are listed in the link) didn't apply for RWJ positions, there would be three other people from this market who received them. Either directly from the RWJ, or through vacancy chains, three more people potentially* would have received offers from somewhere. If a RWJ scholar does not have a concurrent TT offer, they'd be back on the market in two years. However, if you're reading this board, you'd probably prefer that vacancies occur now, as opposed to facing additional competition in two years. Put differently, those three people "double-dipped" and filled up six vacancies. Of course, they have earned (or at least been granted) this privilege, and it is entirely within their rights to do so. * I won't unequivocally say 'three', because there's potential for failed searches along the vacancy chains.
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Post by yeahbut on Mar 23, 2012 13:53:00 GMT -5
How does it create a more challenging market for others if someone has both a postdoc offer and a TT offer from the same place? If the TT offer is going to someone, the RWJ would just allow for someone else to pay that person for the first two years and for him or her to have two years to get rolling without the customary relocation transition bridging the conversion from postdoc to active faculty member. Very many RWJ scholars have TT positions secured by the time they accept the fellowship, so whether this position is at the place that is hosting the postdoc or elsewhere, nobody else lost out on that position. Hypothetically, if those three people (whom we are forbidden from naming here, but are listed in the link) didn't apply for RWJ positions, there would be three other people from this market who received them. Either directly from the RWJ, or through vacancy chains, three more people potentially* would have received offers from somewhere. If a RWJ scholar does not have a concurrent TT offer, they'd be back on the market in two years. However, if you're reading this board, you'd probably prefer that vacancies occur now, as opposed to facing additional competition in two years. Put differently, those three people "double-dipped" and filled up six vacancies. Of course, they have earned (or at least been granted) this privilege, and it is entirely within their rights to do so. * I won't unequivocally say 'three', because there's potential for failed searches along the vacancy chains. I suck at posting... I don't think this addresses the OP's point though. Someone landing a TT job and RWJ concurrently is not a new thing (hell, one department hired two ABDs last year who BOTH landed RWJs). The OP is specifically commenting on landing the RWJ and the TT job at the same institution. Thus, the point isn't that the candidates are double-dipping but rather that the institutions are inflating their own faculty prestige by giving them a shiny new line on the CV.
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Post by reason on Mar 23, 2012 14:42:51 GMT -5
I don't think this addresses the OP's point though. OP wasn't very specific.
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Post by whats the big deal on Mar 23, 2012 15:58:46 GMT -5
How does it create a more challenging market for others if someone has both a postdoc offer and a TT offer from the same place? If the TT offer is going to someone, the RWJ would just allow for someone else to pay that person for the first two years and for him or her to have two years to get rolling without the customary relocation transition bridging the conversion from postdoc to active faculty member. Very many RWJ scholars have TT positions secured by the time they accept the fellowship, so whether this position is at the place that is hosting the postdoc or elsewhere, nobody else lost out on that position. Hypothetically, if those three people (whom we are forbidden from naming here, but are listed in the link) didn't apply for RWJ positions, there would be three other people from this market who received them. Either directly from the RWJ, or through vacancy chains, three more people potentially* would have received offers from somewhere. If a RWJ scholar does not have a concurrent TT offer, they'd be back on the market in two years. However, if you're reading this board, you'd probably prefer that vacancies occur now, as opposed to facing additional competition in two years. Put differently, those three people "double-dipped" and filled up six vacancies. Of course, they have earned (or at least been granted) this privilege, and it is entirely within their rights to do so. * I won't unequivocally say 'three', because there's potential for failed searches along the vacancy chains. There is nothing suspect about accepting a postdoc at the same time that one secures a tenure track position; this grants an advantage to the junior faculty member that is just slightly more than the equivalent of getting a grant and buying out one's time, and RWJs are not alone in negotiating to count fellowship time and productivity as part of the tenure clock. As someone else indicated, the question is whether departments that accept RWJs onto faculty and host them for their postdocs simultaneously are inflating the prestige of their faculty.
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Post by specific enough on Mar 23, 2012 16:11:50 GMT -5
I don't think this addresses the OP's point though. OP wasn't very specific. What do we make of RWJ offers going to folks who have TT offers at the same institution?[/i]
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Post by anony on Mar 23, 2012 17:37:52 GMT -5
The RWJ program's decision is made at the national level, not the institution-level (although institutions do rank their preferred candidates).
So it's not like an individual department is trying to game the system here; they have literally nothing to do with these decisions. The only way that could come into play is if a program site director is on the faculty of the hiring department, so would know what was going on with the faculty search.
But the site directors do not get to pick their incoming scholars; the national program office does.
Congrats to those who secured RWJ and TT offers at these great institutions!
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Post by hmmmm on Mar 23, 2012 18:31:08 GMT -5
The RWJ program's decision is made at the national level, not the institution-level (although institutions do rank their preferred candidates). So it's not like an individual department is trying to game the system here; they have literally nothing to do with these decisions. The only way that could come into play is if a program site director is on the faculty of the hiring department, so would know what was going on with the faculty search. But the site directors do not get to pick their incoming scholars; the national program office does. Congrats to those who secured RWJ and TT offers at these great institutions! I'm not entirely sure that's a full depiction of the process. The match between an institution's rank of a candidate and a candidate's rank of an institution is pretty important. The timing seems like a candidate may know their standing with the TT job prior to the interview for the RWJ. At the very least they should have already been invited out for an interview for the TT job. I think there's plenty of reason to suspect they *could* game the system, although I'm not saying they *do* game the system.
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